Talk:Indulgence

Luther

"Everyone knows" that Luther condemned indulgences in the 95 Theses: it is reported widely in supposedly WP:RS and in the current article itself. The trouble is, it is not exactly true: if you look at article 71 and 72 you get a better foundation:

71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolical pardons, be anathema and cursed.

72. But blessed be he who is on his guard against the preacher's of pardons naughty and impudent words.

There will be others with a better understanding, but Luther at this stage limited indulgences relative to the Gospel, and decried abuses, but explicitly allowed apostolic pardons (from the power of the keys) which relate to the remission of penalties not some alternaive route to the forgiveness of sins. Even in 1525, in his Bondage of the Will, he described the issue of Indulgences as comparatively trivial or superficial.

So may I suggest that editors should be careful to use "abuse of indulgences" or "unsound promises about indulgences" or "simony" etc. rather than the blanket Luther condemned "indulgences." Rick Jelliffe (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Confusing

Howdy! I'm not sure how to improve this article. I find it extremely confusing. I was raised Catholic, and I have some understanding of indulgences, but this article goes over my head. I think there are too many words that are not clearly defined in a way that a layman would understand. There also seem to be quotes from Scripture or from historians that I think would be more effective if paraphrased in lay terms, rather than left as is.

An example is the second quote in the lead paragraph ("a remission...prescribed conditions"). The quote might be fine if the terms used in it were directly and plainly defined immediate after. What does remission mean in this context? What is a temporal punishment? Why is there punishment if the sin is already forgiven? These things seem to get covered later in the article, but it would be nice to have a quick explanation up front.

Other examples are "severe penances of the early church", "intercession of Christians awaiting martyrdom", "treasury of merit", penance vs Purgatory, etc.

To me, the intro feels like it's written for folks who already know this, rather than being helpful for someone who may be less familiar. I think it might benefit for someone to explain it without using church lingo. If possible 🙂

Maybe better examples are in the next section. "[T]hey acquire the liability of guilt and the liability of punishment." What is a liability of guilt and what is a liability of punishment? What does liability mean in this context?

"[T]o separate a person from [God] to the end of suffering the eternal death of hell as an effect of this rejection, a consequence known as the "eternal punishment" of sin." I think this is saying that damnation is the penalty, but it's really not clear. I'm not sure what "to the end of suffering the eternal death of hell as an effect of this rejection" means or what clarity it brings. Maybe there's some missing punctuation? Kastchei (talk) 03:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)